Edoropolis Emporium

[Note: This topic was split from the Who's Who thread into its own thread. You may post in this thread to discuss the current state of the cartoon industry - MM]


Dude! Rocko's Modern Life! I LOVED that cartoon. I can't believe I forgot about that one.
Question: Does anyone rememer another cartoon called Eek the Cat? How about Terrible Thunder Lizards? I loved those cartoons as well.

ONE MORE THING!

Personally I hate MIDIs. Their only good for cell phone ring tones. I have a hobby of trying to find music from old video games and the existence of MIDI files makes that so hard to do. I don't want the MIDI I want the ORIGINAL music!

Wow, I haven't thought about that show in years... YEARS!

Thanks for the memory jog, Mecha.

Even now, I still remember the Star Wars episode...  :D I loved that show. Sooo dang funny.

Yes, Terrible Thunder Lizards is awesome, I think it appeared as part of the EEK Sravaganza during the second season.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=terrible+thunder+lizards&search=Search (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=terrible+thunder+lizards&search=Search)

Yeah. It did. Those were good times. Back when Saturday Morning Cartoon lineups were at their prime in the mid-90s. I remember waking up early enough to catch the lineups that come up. The biggest one in that time were Fox Kids. Back when Fox had the best kid and cartoon shows in the country. While CBS, ABC, and NBC did little to get kids view them. Even though ABC (which was bought by Disney in the late 90s) had some Disney cartoon shows.Man, those were good times to be a kid.

If you look at it now, most of the shows were not very good and the changes just blow them off. I mean, take a look in the past when Satuday Morning Cartoons were a rage. In the 80s, the stations that had the best were three. CBS, NBC, and ABC. Then, when the 90s rolled around Fox came and blast the compitition. They were the only station that had THE best cartoon shows on the planet and was able to bring kids to the TV. Then, as the 90s roll around UPN and WB were coming about and started to bring cartoons. UPN was lagging, NBC was getting educational, CBS has nothing, and ABC did little even with Disney. Then, the turn of the 21st century, WB started rising and there was finally compitition. During the times of 1998 - 2004, the only two stations that had the best cartoon shows in the country were Kids WB and Fox Kids. Back in that time, you either watch WB or Fox for cartoons. Even the shows that were once on their lineup got bought out and it was back and forth to gather who got the rights to show the show.

But, look at them now. Even though both are still in compitition, they are now lacking in terms of great shows. Now, they're trying to bring back old shows in new ways, old shows that are now cut, and mosty anime. Those two suck now and I'm lacking interest in watching either of them.

Man. I wish I was back when Saturday Morning Cartoon lineups were huge. You could do nothing, but watch cartoons all Saturday morning and that was your day. Saturdays were looking forward to every week and that was the best time for TV. Now, it seems like the cartoon lineups are slipping and no more new ideas are coming up. What happened? They were doing great at the turn of the century and Fox was the man in the 90s. What happened?

Andy (The cartoon fanatic)

Andy I agree,
The early 90's was the best time for TV.
Both the quality and quantity of great shows and cartoons from that era (which happens to be our childhood) has yet to be surpassed.
Cartoon wise we had the best of the late 80's stuff still around and as you mentioned the monopolies making very good creative efforts to outperform each others saturday morning cartoon slots with new material. There are so many good cartoons I won't begin to try and name them all.  But also remember the great shows that were not cartoons.  Remember Pete and Pete, Salute Your Shorts, Afraid of the Dark, Goosebumps, Hey Dude, All That and the other great stuff Nick was putting out before it crashed and burned. These shows didn't need gimmics or merchandise to work, they were genuine good TV. Where are the shows like this now? Everything now is either adult humor(swearing/gross out jokes/ violence) or dumbed down soap operas that target 10 year old girls.    Nothing seems to be really well written or funny anymore.  For this reason I don't really watch TV anymore.  Nothing "good" is on.

So ends my rant, what do you guys think.

Part of the problem is there aren't really any original American cartoons anymore.  At least, not for general audiences.  I have noticed an abundance of live-action kids shows and dubbed Japanese cartoons (ironic, considering that's what Samurai Pizza Cats is) on Saturday morning, but I haven't actually tried watching Saturday morning cartoons since before they year 2000. 

I may be the only one old enough to remember, but I also used to like stuff like Inspector Gadget and Darkwing Duck, back in the day.  Gadget was almost all physical humor, but Darkwing Duck actually is a bit of a spoof on super-hero comics and entertainment in general, although a couple of the cultural references aren't as timely as they used to be -- again, just like one certain show I can think of.

I totally agree. The last good American cartoon I watched was Teen Titan and that's cancelled now. I also used to watch a lot of anime during the Pokemon Era but now I only watch Full Metal Alchemist. So now I'm down to watching ONE animated show and it's not even American. How pethetic is that.

Oh, and one other thing. I just watched those two Thunder Lizards clips on YouTube. I nearly fell off my chair when Mr. Trex entered the room. I have to find this series online somewhere.

Yah, I remember Darkwing Duck and Inspecter Gadget. Gadget was a retard. It was Brain who actually did all the work.

It seems as though that out domestic cartoon companies are running out of original ideas, and are having to refer to asian influences to get any thing done, and by that, they just take what is being made in Japan, and dub it (horribly) here.

Thought sometimes there are some gems they manage to bring over (Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star, Gundam Wing, etc) I still like some of the things they are showing now, even though I have to stay up until 2 in the morning to watch them on Adult Swim (yay!).

Though they are a bit childish, a true cartoon can still cater to an adult audience.  Some domestic examples being Rocko's Modern Life, TMNT, Ren & Stimpy (which I think was originally made for just adults, just watch it!) and new shows like Fairly Odd Parents, and Spongebob Squarepants (yes, I'm serious, that show is awesome). And then shows like Venture Bros., Robot Chicken, and Boondocks.

I remember watching the old Aladdin cartoon in the mornings before school. However, I dropped that in favor of Bobby's World and Beast Wars. (And eventually, SPC) I too remember the awesome Saturday mornings. Even though I didn't have cable, I could watch Looney Tunes, Darkwing Duck, The Tick, Batman, Scooby Doo, Sonic The Hedgehog...

And then my dad sold our TV and I didn't watch TV for about eight years.

I think that's the reason I only watch one or two shows every now and then. That, and te fact that they just don't make 'em like they used to.

I've heard Samurai Jack is a good show. From a friend who loves the show.

Cartoon Network had good shows for a while. One I watched all the time was Dexter's Labratory.(I was young then, so my mom wouldn't let me watch Johnny Bravo. Thought it might turn me into some kind of playboy, I guess.)

The only thing I really watch now is anime. And of that, I dislike roughly 98% of it. You have to dig past all the magical girls and big robots to find the gems.

...I made quite speech, huh?

Dexter's Lab was pretty good.  I like the Venture Bros., but that's basically a parody of Jonny Quest, and, to a lesser extent, adventure comics and serials in general, so it's not a completely original idea. 

Man. Where have all the good times gone? I mean, the mid 90s was the best time of Disney cartoons. That's when I became a HUGE Disney fan because of the cartoon shows. Like Rescue Rangers, Darkwing Duck, Tail Spin, Ducktales, Quack Pack, Goof Troop, Aladdin TAS, The Little Mermaid series (you have to admit that even though it's cute, it's pretty good), The Mighty Ducks, and Gummi Bears. I forgot the rest, but I think that's all of them that I watch all the time during the hey day of Saturday Morning cartoons.

Also, I use to remember that cartoons were use to be shown during the weekday mornings and afternoons, before and after school. Now, it seems that they're no longer doing it. Also, I just saw that ABC Family is no longer showing cartoons in Saturday mornings anymore. Why the heck did they just all of sudden changed that. Now, it's all family sitcoms and such. What happened?

I really miss the good ole days now. No more afternoon and morning cartoon lineups, no more cable Saturday morning lineups, and only a few good shows on Fox and WB (Now CW). I'll try to find something to watch for good cartoons someday.

Where have they gone wrong?

Theorize, people!!

I always thought that at the end of the 80s, hugely successful animated films like 'The Little Mermaid' and 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit' helped to renew interest in animation for everyone during the next decade. Some call this the 'animation rennaisance' of the 90s and it really improved the feel and quality of the weekday/weekend cartoons, not just Disney. But now that everyone is in the 21st Century with high tech CGI gadgets and stuff, and less emphasis on the good ol' hand-drawn toons, today's shows don't have that charm anymore. However, not without some exceptions!

There were some good shows even before Disney got popular again. I liked watching their old toons too, but right now I watch [adult swim] whenever I'm still awake at 1 or 2 in the morning!

2d animation is also a laborious process.  Compare it with 3d animation.  In 3d, you make the model, start a frame with it in this position, set another frame with the model in a different position and the computer makes the frames inbetween all by itself.  With 2d, you have to do all the frames seperately.

However, there's this guy that's making a 2d animation program that accomplishes the same task as 3d animation.  It's called Synfig, but its still in development.

Well. I don't like 3d animation that much. Unless it fits with the story and it was needed for it. But, if there are 3d effects and backgrounds for a 2d animation. Then, that's where you draw the line. It looks ugly in that affect and such. I just think that there are certain stories and series that needs only 2d animation and only 3d animation. Like for say: TNMT. That works great for just 2d in terms of characters and fightings. And for Beast Wars. 3d works great for it because it deals with tons of transformations and such. That's what I think works best.

I also hope that we get to see more 2d animated movies in the future. Because the story that I'm writing right now would look great in 2d instead of 3d. That's just my opinion. I know it's harder and it takes longer than 3d, but hard work is better than taking the easy way. Right?

Another problem that the industry is facing: economics. 
Who wants to pay a small team of talented, dedicated American animation specialists to make a movie (or show) the old fashioned way when they could either
A) make a 3D film in one-fourth the time
or
B) have it done in one of asias "sweat-shop" animation firms. 

3D is less time and money for obvious reasons, less recources and time mean bigger profits. 

And (some, not all) Korean and Japanese studios will have a set up where they have dozens of animators, who work 14 hours a day for next to nothing, in one room just banging out animations at a much higher rate (quality suffers) than American studios could ever hope for.
Thus we begin to outsource, and save time + money which makes sense from a financial point of view.
Yet the main fallback is that our children may not grow up with the kind of shows and animation we did.  Don't be suprised when your grandchildren ask you "Who's Mickey Mouse?"

'twill be a sad day when kids wonder who mickey and bugs bunny are :'(


did you ever watch Titan AE?  2d and 3d animation combined in that movie.  I thought it looked okay...

It better than ok, it was great.

yeah, they really did a number on Titan AE! :D

too bad most animation today is just recycled stuff (lion king 1 1/2), and when a truly unique show struts its stuff it gets cancelled!
take Samurai Jack for instance... great show, bad cancellation

One of Don Bluth's best films...  :)


Recording your fav shows on video or DVD is a definate must-do, before that very unexpected cancellation.

The goods ones are the first to get cancelled, while the bad ones hang around forever and haunt you with their reruns.

...Kinda like people in real life.  :P

It's sad, isn't it? The stuff you love never lasts.



...Unless it's on Youtube! W00T!

Yeah. It seems that the modern animation studios and companies are not doing well financially because the quality of cartoons are slipping. I mean, Yu-Gi-Oh was pretty much a "great" animated show that I like watching and it was the only thing that kept me waking up on Saturdays. But lately, I haven't been waking up early enough to watch Saturday mornings recently. Maybe this week and I'll catch the line-ups to all the networks to see what they have.

I'll tell you guys what each network has and rate each show in terms of quality, showmanship, and goodness ratings. I'm sure there's at least ONE good show out there that is favorable to watch. I gotta keep getting myself a TV Guide or something that shows what catoon shows are on.

BTW. Whatever happened to Don Bluth?

Oh. And I did heard that Disney is thinking of going back to doing only 2d animation and let Pixar just 3d. I think that because of the way people personified Chicklen Little, they think that Meet the Robinsons will get the same reaction. A few liked it and the majority thought that it would've been better, or a few thought it stunk. So, it's understandable.

And it would a really sad day if/when our children or our children's children didn't know who Bugs Bunny or Mickey Mouse was? Let's just hope that the animation companies can bounce back really soon. Because I can tell that many of the children don't even care about cartoons anymore. I think that's why there are no longer weekday morning and afternoon lineups on TV because the cartoon shows are slipping. There's gotta be a way to get the cartoon lineups back on the air everyday instead of on extra cable channels and Saturday mornings.

There were a lot of general cartoons that I really liked during the 90's, like Tartakovsky's stuff and a few of the Disney cartoons, but lately, it seems like I'm too out of touch with them durn' young'uns to watch TV animation anymore, and the only stuff I still get is adult-targeted animation like Futurama, American Dad, and the like.  I did think Kim Possible had some promise, but then they canceled it.

You know who they should bring back?  Popeye.  Except they'd probably have to make him too PC for it to be true to the source material.

Nope, it ended. A show only really gets canceled when there is no real ending. I don’t want to spoil anything but all the plots got resolved and Kim ended with her true love. After that, there wasn’t much to be done in the show.


2D animation is faster and allows many things to be made without going out of the budget. Take the Jimmy vs Timmy example, Jimmy Neutron doesn’t have much changes, while in  the fairy odd parents they just can go anywhere with no problem. That’s why most 3D shows tend to be very simple…

And about 2D without many drawings, take Pucca funny love for example, they made a TV show, is 2D and is awesome.

thing about the budget, many animation companies don't have large budgets and run out of money.  Take Evangelion for example, the last 2 eps were so weird because they ran out of money.  The fans wanted the real ending, so Gainax got some more money and finished Eva with the movie.  Another show called Berzerk (I think thats the spelling) ran out of money after ep 25, so it never ended.  it hit the climax and just left the viewers hanging.  Another anime (don't know the name, i think it was another Gainax one...) ran out of money in the middle of a season, so one of the episodes uses puppets on popsicle sticks.

Had a buddy make me a little 3d animated short of a bear drinking beer.  he spent perhaps 5 hours on the models and animation.  Had he done 2d, it would've taken much, much longer because of all the filler frames.  3d animation does filler frames for you.

Personally, though, i prefer 2d animation.  It's just so much more expressive :)

You and me both, man. :)

I think he's not making any films at the moment, but he was working in the video games industry in recent years with Dragon's Lair 3D and I-Ninja. Hope he makes another animated film to top Dreamworks or something...  :P

Heh heh, remember when Don Bluth's films triumphed over Disney's in the 80s? But then this whole 'rennaisance' thing happened with The Little Mermaid and Aladdin and, like they say, the tables have turned in the 90s when everyone preferred Disney.  8O

2D is so much cooler - it's just something we grew up with, isn't it?  :)

Oh yeah. How do I remember. The Secret of NIMH, The Land Before Time, An American Tale, All Dogs Go To Heaven. Man, those are good times. Also, don't forget The Rescuers Down Under that was released in the 80s.

I remember when I saw my first actual movie. I was like 4 going on 5 and my mother took me and my little brother to see The Land Before Time. It was an awesome movie. I had a great time. Then, Mom took us to Pizza Hut and they had those Land Before Time puppets. Remember those? She bought two for each of us. I had Little Foot and my brother had Ducky. Those are lost right now, but I still remember. I also remember seeing The Rescuers Down Under and The Little Mermaid in theaters and had a great time there.

God, I miss the good ol' days.

I'm sure Land Before TIme wasn't the first movie I saw. But It was the first movie I owned on VHS.

I do like 2d animation more so than 3d.

interesting views about the current state of the animation industry...

i'm going to be making the 2nd ALL 3D animated series for children while i do my degree.

when the website for my studio is up i'll post the link.

Neko

sweet! :D  i'm definitely wanting to see this...
I can see it now...
"Cartoon industry saved by Tsuneko!"

funny you should mention what's happened to the cartoon industry these days. recently, i posted a journal on my deviantArt page: http://apacheman2k.deviantart.com/journal/10454869/

this journal has a link with some interesting tidbits about the evil conspiracy that is 4Krap TV.

For good and bad, here they air uncensored anime at 3:AM, too bad I dont know show to use my tape recorder...with direct TV thats it...

you should consider yourself lucky, mostly for the fact that the integrity of anime is preserved. but, anything 4Kids touches, becomes tainted. tainted with unnecessary music substitutions, cruddily dubbed dialogue, and the originality of anime being either damaged or taken away. 'tis sad, really.

fortunately, there are much better dubbers, namely Bandai Entertainment. i think they are the ones who've ever left the music and original characters' integrities untouched.

I've put my comment up on your DA journal, ApacheMan, so I'll put it up here too:

I like the tone of that message. It also makes a very good point about how removing the original aspect of the music produces such mediocre action for American audiences. That's an important factor that was left out, and if 4Kids keeps this up, it will run the risk of becoming too PC for US TV viewing ( and you know I -can't stand- PCorrectness! >_<; ) Or maybe it already has... ?

For the last few years I've been boycotting 3d animation in the theatre. i wont give them my money until tghey bring back GOOD 2d animation.  >:(

It won't happen. The 3D gimmick is here to stay, just like it was with video games. Only 10 years later are we beginning to see a hint of 2D platformer's return.

Like Viewtifull Joe and Alien Hominid?

hey guys;

3D is NOT a gimmick by any means. 3D takes on average 5 times longer to make and composite, and it's MORE animator intensive than 'good old 2D' and i'd like to bring your attention to most '2D' cartoons that are actually 3D images rendered using a "Toon" renderer.

Powerpuff girls, (Movie  and season 4 onwards), Fosters home for imaginary friends, Winx Club, are to name a few that are in fact 3D composite, but made to 'look' 2D. having worked on 3D work in my university degree, i can do much much more than if i was to just draw it.

I use a graphics tablet to do my work also, so in fact i'm still 'drawing' 3D art.

Neko

3D or 2D it doesn't matter, as long as it's entertaining, I dun care about how it looks.

Burkey

Thats what I said, "2D animation is faster and allows many things to be made"...