The Plight of the Cartoon Industry

[Mechadon]

[Note: This topic was split from the Who's Who thread into its own thread. You may post in this thread to discuss the current state of the cartoon industry - MM]

Other Favorite Shows: Mobile Suit Gundam (the original 1979 one), Neon Genesis Evangelion, Rocko's Modern Life, Mythbusters, Law & Order (and spinoffs), House M.D.

Dude! Rocko's Modern Life! I LOVED that cartoon. I can't believe I forgot about that one.
Question: Does anyone rememer another cartoon called Eek the Cat? How about Terrible Thunder Lizards? I loved those cartoons as well.

ONE MORE THING!

Personally I hate MIDIs. Their only good for cell phone ring tones. I have a hobby of trying to find music from old video games and the existence of MIDI files makes that so hard to do. I don't want the MIDI I want the ORIGINAL music!

[NPC]

EEK-Stravaganza!
Wow, I haven't thought about that show in years... YEARS!

Thanks for the memory jog, Mecha.

Even now, I still remember the Star Wars episode...  I loved that show. Sooo dang funny.

[Threaux]

Yes, Terrible Thunder Lizards is awesome, I think it appeared as part of the EEK Sravaganza during the second season.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=terrible+thunder+lizards&search=Search

[Andy]

Yeah. It did. Those were good times. Back when Saturday Morning Cartoon lineups were at their prime in the mid-90s. I remember waking up early enough to catch the lineups that come up. The biggest one in that time were Fox Kids. Back when Fox had the best kid and cartoon shows in the country. While CBS, ABC, and NBC did little to get kids view them. Even though ABC (which was bought by Disney in the late 90s) had some Disney cartoon shows.Man, those were good times to be a kid.

If you look at it now, most of the shows were not very good and the changes just blow them off. I mean, take a look in the past when Satuday Morning Cartoons were a rage. In the 80s, the stations that had the best were three. CBS, NBC, and ABC. Then, when the 90s rolled around Fox came and blast the compitition. They were the only station that had THE best cartoon shows on the planet and was able to bring kids to the TV. Then, as the 90s roll around UPN and WB were coming about and started to bring cartoons. UPN was lagging, NBC was getting educational, CBS has nothing, and ABC did little even with Disney. Then, the turn of the 21st century, WB started rising and there was finally compitition. During the times of 1998 - 2004, the only two stations that had the best cartoon shows in the country were Kids WB and Fox Kids. Back in that time, you either watch WB or Fox for cartoons. Even the shows that were once on their lineup got bought out and it was back and forth to gather who got the rights to show the show.

But, look at them now. Even though both are still in compitition, they are now lacking in terms of great shows. Now, they're trying to bring back old shows in new ways, old shows that are now cut, and mosty anime. Those two suck now and I'm lacking interest in watching either of them.

Man. I wish I was back when Saturday Morning Cartoon lineups were huge. You could do nothing, but watch cartoons all Saturday morning and that was your day. Saturdays were looking forward to every week and that was the best time for TV. Now, it seems like the cartoon lineups are slipping and no more new ideas are coming up. What happened? They were doing great at the turn of the century and Fox was the man in the 90s. What happened?

Andy (The cartoon fanatic)

[Threaux]

Andy I agree,
The early 90's was the best time for TV.
Both the quality and quantity of great shows and cartoons from that era (which happens to be our childhood) has yet to be surpassed.
Cartoon wise we had the best of the late 80's stuff still around and as you mentioned the monopolies making very good creative efforts to outperform each others saturday morning cartoon slots with new material. There are so many good cartoons I won't begin to try and name them all.  But also remember the great shows that were not cartoons.  Remember Pete and Pete, Salute Your Shorts, Afraid of the Dark, Goosebumps, Hey Dude, All That and the other great stuff Nick was putting out before it crashed and burned. These shows didn't need gimmics or merchandise to work, they were genuine good TV. Where are the shows like this now? Everything now is either adult humor(swearing/gross out jokes/ violence) or dumbed down soap operas that target 10 year old girls.    Nothing seems to be really well written or funny anymore.  For this reason I don't really watch TV anymore.  Nothing "good" is on.

So ends my rant, what do you guys think.

[littlebadwolf]

Part of the problem is there aren't really any original American cartoons anymore.  At least, not for general audiences.  I have noticed an abundance of live-action kids shows and dubbed Japanese cartoons (ironic, considering that's what Samurai Pizza Cats is) on Saturday morning, but I haven't actually tried watching Saturday morning cartoons since before they year 2000. 

I may be the only one old enough to remember, but I also used to like stuff like Inspector Gadget and Darkwing Duck, back in the day.  Gadget was almost all physical humor, but Darkwing Duck actually is a bit of a spoof on super-hero comics and entertainment in general, although a couple of the cultural references aren't as timely as they used to be -- again, just like one certain show I can think of.

[Mechadon]

Andy I agree,
The early 90's was the best time for TV.
Both the quality and quantity of great shows and cartoons from that era (which happens to be our childhood) has yet to be surpassed.
Cartoon wise we had the best of the late 80's stuff still around and as you mentioned the monopolies making very good creative efforts to outperform each others saturday morning cartoon slots with new material. There are so many good cartoons I won't begin to try and name them all.  But also remember the great shows that were not cartoons.  Remember Pete and Pete, Salute Your Shorts, Afraid of the Dark, Goosebumps, Hey Dude, All That and the other great stuff Nick was putting out before it crashed and burned. These shows didn't need gimmics or merchandise to work, they were genuine good TV. Where are the shows like this now? Everything now is either adult humor(swearing/gross out jokes/ violence) or dumbed down soap operas that target 10 year old girls.    Nothing seems to be really well written or funny anymore.  For this reason I don't really watch TV anymore.  Nothing "good" is on.

So ends my rant, what do you guys think.

I totally agree. The last good American cartoon I watched was Teen Titan and that's cancelled now. I also used to watch a lot of anime during the Pokemon Era but now I only watch Full Metal Alchemist. So now I'm down to watching ONE animated show and it's not even American. How pethetic is that.

Oh, and one other thing. I just watched those two Thunder Lizards clips on YouTube. I nearly fell off my chair when Mr. Trex entered the room. I have to find this series online somewhere.

[Methid Man]

I quit watching cartoons on network stations as soon as I got Cartoon Network back in 2001. It disappoints me that I got it so late in the game because even CN's programming is starting to go downhill pretty fast now (save for a few gems like Billy and Mandy).

It's a good thing we all have Adult Swim. I dunno where we'd be without it.

-- Sam the Methid Man

[Mechadon]

Part of the problem is there aren't really any original American cartoons anymore.  At least, not for general audiences.  I have noticed an abundance of live-action kids shows and dubbed Japanese cartoons (ironic, considering that's what Samurai Pizza Cats is) on Saturday morning, but I haven't actually tried watching Saturday morning cartoons since before they year 2000. 

I may be the only one old enough to remember, but I also used to like stuff like Inspector Gadget and Darkwing Duck, back in the day.  Gadget was almost all physical humor, but Darkwing Duck actually is a bit of a spoof on super-hero comics and entertainment in general, although a couple of the cultural references aren't as timely as they used to be -- again, just like one certain show I can think of.

Yah, I remember Darkwing Duck and Inspecter Gadget. Gadget was a retard. It was Brain who actually did all the work.

[Methid Man]

At 23, I still have enough memories of both shows to remember them fondly...

-- Sam the Methid Man

[Valkyrie]

It seems as though that out domestic cartoon companies are running out of original ideas, and are having to refer to asian influences to get any thing done, and by that, they just take what is being made in Japan, and dub it (horribly) here.

Thought sometimes there are some gems they manage to bring over (Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star, Gundam Wing, etc) I still like some of the things they are showing now, even though I have to stay up until 2 in the morning to watch them on Adult Swim (yay!).

Though they are a bit childish, a true cartoon can still cater to an adult audience.  Some domestic examples being Rocko's Modern Life, TMNT, Ren & Stimpy (which I think was originally made for just adults, just watch it!) and new shows like Fairly Odd Parents, and Spongebob Squarepants (yes, I'm serious, that show is awesome). And then shows like Venture Bros., Robot Chicken, and Boondocks.

[NPC]

I remember watching the old Aladdin cartoon in the mornings before school. However, I dropped that in favor of Bobby's World and Beast Wars. (And eventually, SPC) I too remember the awesome Saturday mornings. Even though I didn't have cable, I could watch Looney Tunes, Darkwing Duck, The Tick, Batman, Scooby Doo, Sonic The Hedgehog...

And then my dad sold our TV and I didn't watch TV for about eight years.

I think that's the reason I only watch one or two shows every now and then. That, and te fact that they just don't make 'em like they used to.

I've heard Samurai Jack is a good show. From a friend who loves the show.

Cartoon Network had good shows for a while. One I watched all the time was Dexter's Labratory.(I was young then, so my mom wouldn't let me watch Johnny Bravo. Thought it might turn me into some kind of playboy, I guess.)

The only thing I really watch now is anime. And of that, I dislike roughly 98% of it. You have to dig past all the magical girls and big robots to find the gems.

...I made quite speech, huh?

[littlebadwolf]

Dexter's Lab was pretty good.  I like the Venture Bros., but that's basically a parody of Jonny Quest, and, to a lesser extent, adventure comics and serials in general, so it's not a completely original idea. 

[Andy]

Man. Where have all the good times gone? I mean, the mid 90s was the best time of Disney cartoons. That's when I became a HUGE Disney fan because of the cartoon shows. Like Rescue Rangers, Darkwing Duck, Tail Spin, Ducktales, Quack Pack, Goof Troop, Aladdin TAS, The Little Mermaid series (you have to admit that even though it's cute, it's pretty good), The Mighty Ducks, and Gummi Bears. I forgot the rest, but I think that's all of them that I watch all the time during the hey day of Saturday Morning cartoons.

Also, I use to remember that cartoons were use to be shown during the weekday mornings and afternoons, before and after school. Now, it seems that they're no longer doing it. Also, I just saw that ABC Family is no longer showing cartoons in Saturday mornings anymore. Why the heck did they just all of sudden changed that. Now, it's all family sitcoms and such. What happened?

I really miss the good ole days now. No more afternoon and morning cartoon lineups, no more cable Saturday morning lineups, and only a few good shows on Fox and WB (Now CW). I'll try to find something to watch for good cartoons someday.

Where have they gone wrong?

[SteC]

Theorize, people!!

I always thought that at the end of the 80s, hugely successful animated films like 'The Little Mermaid' and 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit' helped to renew interest in animation for everyone during the next decade. Some call this the 'animation rennaisance' of the 90s and it really improved the feel and quality of the weekday/weekend cartoons, not just Disney. But now that everyone is in the 21st Century with high tech CGI gadgets and stuff, and less emphasis on the good ol' hand-drawn toons, today's shows don't have that charm anymore. However, not without some exceptions!

There were some good shows even before Disney got popular again. I liked watching their old toons too, but right now I watch [adult swim] whenever I'm still awake at 1 or 2 in the morning!

[robinoz]

2d animation is also a laborious process.  Compare it with 3d animation.  In 3d, you make the model, start a frame with it in this position, set another frame with the model in a different position and the computer makes the frames inbetween all by itself.  With 2d, you have to do all the frames seperately.

However, there's this guy that's making a 2d animation program that accomplishes the same task as 3d animation.  It's called Synfig, but its still in development.

[Andy]

Well. I don't like 3d animation that much. Unless it fits with the story and it was needed for it. But, if there are 3d effects and backgrounds for a 2d animation. Then, that's where you draw the line. It looks ugly in that affect and such. I just think that there are certain stories and series that needs only 2d animation and only 3d animation. Like for say: TNMT. That works great for just 2d in terms of characters and fightings. And for Beast Wars. 3d works great for it because it deals with tons of transformations and such. That's what I think works best.

I also hope that we get to see more 2d animated movies in the future. Because the story that I'm writing right now would look great in 2d instead of 3d. That's just my opinion. I know it's harder and it takes longer than 3d, but hard work is better than taking the easy way. Right?

[Threaux]

Another problem that the industry is facing: economics. 
Who wants to pay a small team of talented, dedicated American animation specialists to make a movie (or show) the old fashioned way when they could either
A) make a 3D film in one-fourth the time
or
B) have it done in one of asias "sweat-shop" animation firms. 

3D is less time and money for obvious reasons, less recources and time mean bigger profits. 

And (some, not all) Korean and Japanese studios will have a set up where they have dozens of animators, who work 14 hours a day for next to nothing, in one room just banging out animations at a much higher rate (quality suffers) than American studios could ever hope for.
Thus we begin to outsource, and save time + money which makes sense from a financial point of view.
Yet the main fallback is that our children may not grow up with the kind of shows and animation we did.  Don't be suprised when your grandchildren ask you "Who's Mickey Mouse?"

[robinoz]

Yet the main fallback is that our children may not grow up with the kind of shows and animation we did.  Don't be suprised when your grandchildren ask you "Who's Mickey Mouse?"

'twill be a sad day when kids wonder who mickey and bugs bunny are

Well. I don't like 3d animation that much. Unless it fits with the story and it was needed for it. But, if there are 3d effects and backgrounds for a 2d animation. Then, that's where you draw the line. It looks ugly in that affect and such.

did you ever watch Titan AE?  2d and 3d animation combined in that movie.  I thought it looked okay...

[NPC]

It better than ok, it was great.