Impressive... I never thought I would actually visit this place

[Purrcat]

26 years after the event, the area still isn't clean. However, cleaning the site and all contaminated areas of Ukraine and Belarus would be an impossible task. In that light, it's interesting that one can approach the no. 4 reactor, especially when you're just visiting, without immediate serious health concerns.
It's said the tragedy contributed in no small amount to the eventual downfall of the USSR, which couldn't or could hardly carry the cost of the whole cleanup operation. An operation that continues to this day and is far from finished, even in the area directly around the site, I should add.

The site where the biggest disaster in history, caused by technology, happened:


Chernobyl.

[Mechadon]

It wasn't caused by technology. It was caused by a nuclear plant being built on coal-plant standards.

[sans soul]

Ah.. a friend of mine is from Belarus, sorry I didn't see your post sooner. Might've had some input for ya... but it seems you found yourself in a very interesting/sombering place regardless...

I recently read a study on birds and other wildlife returning to the chernobyl area and the effect the radiation has had upon the variances of pigment color in some species due to the genetic deconstruction and other things. Apparently, however, the wolves are thriving and doing fairly well for themselves... though the scientific journal was unable to decide whether it has anything to do with the environment or lack of habitable territory forcing the animals to take refuge there.

Hope you enjoyed your time away, seems like you needed to get out and take a break from things for a while.

*

[Matt Pushinka]

I've always loved the history behind chernobyl. It's facinating.

Well, enjoy your time there.

[Purrcat]

Mech, maybe I should've said "mishandling of technology," as the cause was an experiment that was conducted with the plant that got totally out of control due to various factors.

There is a wonderful documentary that was made in recent years, and relatively relevant to the forum too. It's called Life in the Dead Zone and is about nature reclaiming the abandoned city of Pripyat, which is very close to Chernobyl. More precisely, it's about a cat family trying to survive there. The only time I've seen that documentary I had other things to do as well, so I didn't pay all the attention it deserves. It's a sweet documentary, sometimes bitter. Very well worth the watch. On that subject, The Real Battle of Chernobyl is the best disaster related documentary I've seen so far. If anyone knows of more documentaries, I'm interested.

It was also very much a "see for myself" kinda expedition: I think the greenies are way over the top with their alarmist reporting on the subject, and right wingers are way over the top in the other direction. As of the 80s those fronts have been entrenched, and I feel I can trust neither for balanced information with a nonexistent or at least kind of "balanced" bias, if there exists such a thing.

The following might be something new to some of the forum members, but from the replies I got, it looks like an informed crowd I took a geiger counter with recording feature there. Naturally, it also went with me on the airplane. In most parts around Chernobyl, I actually got a lot lower dose than I got on my flight to Kiev from Holland. The problematic part, and it was really astonishing to experience this in real life, was that you sometimes literally have to walk only 20 meters and the radiation dose will have gone up sixfold. The dead city isn't (mostly) abandoned because of high radiation, but because of unpredictability of radiation dose, as one of the reasons.

When I'm home I'll post more details and some more pictures of Pripyat.

[Pizzacat]

It wasn't caused by technology. It was caused by a nuclear plant being built on coal-plant standards.

The conception that the plant was built to substandard measures is nothing more then a stereotypical, ill conceived and still lingering "Cold War" notion that all things Soviet/Russian are poorly made. During my engineering course we studied Chernobyl, and at the time the power plant was built it was one of the most modern reactors in the world and well built in fact, featuring a series of triple redundancies and backup systems.

The disaster at Chernobybl was caused by human error and miscalculation. Essentially engineers in the plant decided to do a stress test on the reactor and see how stable it could be maintained without the safety controls in place, in this case the rods were removed from the core. (This type of test was common practice throughout reactors in the world since is vital to check your backups actually work if they need to) and control over the core was set to manual rather then the automatic systems they had in place. There was a perpetual build up of gas in the reactor that was getting ever hotter, the water system feeding into the reactor only added more to the gas build up and the rods were raised out of the core to they point of being almost removed rather then pulled out.

Story short is that they ran out of time fast and it was a safety and test procedure that spiraled out of control from gross miscalculation.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the machine was perfect, it did its job...the people running it weren't.

Still its such a surreal place, I would love to visit it someday.

[Pizzacat]

It wasn't caused by technology. It was caused by a nuclear plant being built on coal-plant standards.

The conception that the plant was built to substandard measures is nothing more then a stereotypical, ill conceived and still lingering "Cold War" notion that all things Soviet/Russian are poorly made. During my engineering course we studied Chernobyl, and at the time the power plant was built it was one of the most modern reactors in the world and well built in fact, featuring a series of triple redundancies and backup systems.

The disaster at Chernobybl was caused by human error and miscalculation. Essentially engineers in the plant decided to do a stress test on the reactor and see how stable it could be maintained without the safety controls in place, in this case the rods were removed from the core. (This type of test was common practice throughout reactors in the world since is vital to check your backups actually work if they need to) and control over the core was set to manual rather then the automatic systems they had in place. There was a perpetual build up of gas in the reactor that was getting ever hotter, the water system feeding into the reactor only added more to the gas build up and the rods were raised out of the core to they point of being almost removed rather then pulled out.

Story short is that they ran out of time fast and it was a safety and test procedure that spiraled out of control from gross miscalculation.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the machine was perfect, it did its job...the people running it weren't.

Still its such a surreal place, I would love to visit it someday. Now excuse me I need to play S.T.A.L.K.E.R again

[Pizzacat]

It wasn't caused by technology. It was caused by a nuclear plant being built on coal-plant standards.

The conception that the plant was built to substandard measures is nothing more then a stereotypical, ill conceived and still lingering "Cold War" notion that all things Soviet/Russian are poorly made. During my engineering course we studied Chernobyl, and at the time the power plant was built it was one of the most modern reactors in the world and well built in fact, featuring a series of triple redundancies and backup systems.

The disaster at Chernobybl was caused by human error and miscalculation. Essentially engineers in the plant decided to do a stress test on the reactor and see how stable it could be maintained without the safety controls in place, in this case the rods were removed from the core. (This type of test was common practice throughout reactors in the world since is vital to check your backups actually work if they need to) and control over the core was set to manual rather then the automatic systems they had in place. There was a perpetual build up of gas in the reactor that was getting ever hotter, the water system feeding into the reactor only added more to the gas build up and the rods were raised out of the core to they point of being almost removed rather then pulled out.

Story short is that they ran out of time fast and it was a safety and test procedure that spiraled out of control from gross miscalculation.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the machine was perfect, it did its job...the people running it weren't.

Still its such a surreal place, I would love to visit it someday. Now excuse me I need to play S.T.A.L.K.E.R again

[Pizzacat]

It wasn't caused by technology. It was caused by a nuclear plant being built on coal-plant standards.

The conception that the plant was built to substandard measures is nothing more then a stereotypical, ill conceived and still lingering "Cold War" notion that all things Soviet/Russian are poorly made. During my engineering course we studied Chernobyl, and at the time the power plant was built it was one of the most modern reactors in the world and well built in fact, featuring a series of triple redundancies and backup systems.

The disaster at Chernobybl was caused by human error and miscalculation. Essentially engineers in the plant decided to do a stress test on the reactor and see how stable it could be maintained without the safety controls in place, in this case the rods were removed from the core. (This type of test was common practice throughout reactors in the world since is vital to check your backups actually work if they need to) and control over the core was set to manual rather then the automatic systems they had in place. There was a perpetual build up of gas in the reactor that was getting ever hotter, the water system feeding into the reactor only added more to the gas build up and the rods were raised out of the core to they point of being almost removed rather then pulled out.

Story short is that they ran out of time fast and it was a safety and test procedure that spiraled out of control from gross miscalculation.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the machine was perfect, it did its job...the people running it weren't.

Still its such a surreal place, I would love to visit it someday. Now excuse me I need to play S.T.A.L.K.E.R again

[Purrcat]

It's very interesting how that works. Somehow westerners - myself included - tend to see the former Soviet Union countries as.. A bit backward, to say the least. Old tech. Duct tape fixes. That kind of thing. It's another reason I wanted to go to some former USSR country: to see what it's really like, there. Somehow, when I think about Ukraine or Russia, I imagine all-gray blocky buildings, a little rainy weather, sad people walking along in grayish clothes, barely audible a men's choir singing a sad Russian song in b minor (or whatever note is really sad). Sure, this is a bit exaggerated, but still I feel it's too easy to fall into this stereotype trap.
I had a very lengthy and interesting talk with a Kiev tour guide, about what she remembered of the events of '86 and also about how we regards each other. Somehow she heard that westerners are afraid to come to former USSR countries because they kill westerners there and sell their organs. I lol'd and replied there're lots of people in Kiev to kill and sell organs of without having to involve westerners at all.
I almost missed my flight to Kiev, arrived at the airport gate literally 4 minutes before it closed, completely out of breath from running. Before, in the 2 hours of train delays, I was frantically calling the airport, the airline company and customs to find out if I could make it on time, if another flight was available et cetera. When I told the tour guide that all I got from those calls was contradictory and gross misinformation, she seemed genuinely surprised.
From what I could make out of the ruins of Pripyat, I got the impression that for a city built in the 70s, it was really modern even by western standards. However, walking through the non-tourist parts of Kiev, I had to remind myself that yes these people started the space race and all current manned space flights are powered by rockets based on Ukraine-born Korolev's R-7… Apart from newly built constructions, almost all buildings look like they're in dire need of renovation.

Pizzacat: if you want to visit, I suggest you do it quickly. The Chernobyl guide told me they're going to start actual construction of the second sarcophagus this year and I read it should be finished by 2015. By that time, when it's rolled over the reactor, I doubt you'll get to make nice picturesque photographs such as the one I posted.

[Mechadon]

Well. That was educational.

[KyoZaber]

Glad to hear you're having a good trip so far! ... Well... Except for the running late train... and the marathon in the air port.
Chernobyl is definitely an interesting place. Tragic, but interesting.

Any time I see pictures of reactor 4, I get an ominous feeling.
It'll be interesting to see the new sarcophagus once it's in place. I wonder if it'll have the same eerie appearance as it's predecessor.


On a less serious note, so Purrcat, do you now glow in the dark when the lights are turned off? 

[Methid Man]

Another environmental disaster caused by Soviet mismanagement would be the Aral Sea, which started shrinking after the southern river that fed water into it was diverted for irrigation of cotton crops in Uzbekistan.

Aral Sea in 1989 (left) and in 2008 (right)



I would like to visit what's left of the southern part of the Sea before it completely dries up. I wonder if you can visit Kantubek (ghost town in what used to be an island in the middle of the Aral) without getting sick from the toxic salt being kicked up by duststorms in the area.

Fortunately, the northern part is saved thanks to the construction of the Kokaral Dam in 2005 which has brought the water level back up enough to revive the fishing industry. So at least there's some good news there.

[Purrcat]

Wow.. Looked at some pictures with boats on the dry land.. Surreal. So there's toxic dust there from weapons testing, industrial products, pesticides and fertilizer runoff (source: wikipedia). Doesn't sound that healthy at all, especially combined with salty winds.
However, I've developed a pretty cynical view on this. When people have lived their lives there, have been able to reproduce and their offspring as well, you're probably safe to be in the area for a couple of days. Unless you have some very bad luck there. But having very bad luck is essentially the same wherever you go...

@KyoSaber: lol nope. I'm pretty unimpressed by the aftereffects actually. I haven't even grown an extra head or set of arms. Not even a superpower or two!

The new sarcophagus is described here: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvEDVuGOJ6Y" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvEDVuGOJ6Y</a>.

Beware: the video is an utter bore, however it's very much like what the new sarcophagus will be like: boring. It's not built for interestingness though; they want to dismantle the reactor 4 building from within the new sarcophagus. Given how many replicas of buildings I've seen in Kiev however, it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to see that there, or somewhere closely, eventually a replica will be built. However, my guess would be that they'd start building that no less than 40 years from now..

[Supersonic]

The following might be something new to some of the forum members, but from the replies I got, it looks like an informed crowd I took a geiger counter with recording feature there. Naturally, it also went with me on the airplane. In most parts around Chernobyl, I actually got a lot lower dose than I got on my flight to Kiev from Holland. The problematic part, and it was really astonishing to experience this in real life, was that you sometimes literally have to walk only 20 meters and the radiation dose will have gone up sixfold. The dead city isn't (mostly) abandoned because of high radiation, but because of unpredictability of radiation dose, as one of the reasons.

Where was the highest dose experienced? Did you notice any non-obvious sources of latent radiation? Fission is...fascinating.

[Blackcat]

It wasn't caused by technology. It was caused by a nuclear plant being built on coal-plant standards.

the US sabotaging and a guy being drunk also didn't help for what I heard.

[Purrcat]

WARNING: Math ahead!

@Sonic: the highest dose was around 35 microsievert/hour close to the Red Forest. Which would translate to a bit higher dose than you'd get from a dental radiography, the upper limit of what's considered normal for a dental radiography that is. However, we only stayed in that region for about 10 minutes, so the actual dose received was only 1/6th of it: about 5.8 microsievert (uSv). To compare even more: during my flight of about 2.5 hours, I received 6 uSv/hour, so my total dose on the plane from Holland to Ukraine was 15.0 uSv. So, those 10 minutes at the Red Forest compare to roughly 1 hour of flying. Note that I wasn't allowed to exit the car there and wasn't able to wanter closer to the Red Forest, where it's said radiation levels are 3000 times normal background radiation.
Some background info: 5 Sievert, 5,000,000 uSv is a lifetime maximum dose, which you really don't want to reach before your natural lifetime ends (in normal situations you'd never be able to reach this limit). Normal background radiation levels are in the range of 0.08 uSv/hour to 0.3 uSv/hour depending on where you live, as everywhere in nature are particles that are slightly radioactive.
Non-obvious sources.. Well kinda. It was weird to see that some kinds of trees were noticeably more radioactive than others. I'll post a couple of videos in the following weeks.

EDIT: corrected normal background radiation levels: added "per hour" to the microsievert doses

[Purrcat]

I did mean to sort all the footage I made, but oh well, I've already picked out the most interesting bits anyway, so here they are, completely unedited:

Seed Hotspots
Localized hotspots
Moss Concentrations
Red Forest


You might need Apple Quicktime to play the files linked to. Otherwise, I'd recommend downloading the files and playing them with MPlayer.

EDIT: and here's a bit of actual reactor no. 4 footage, on our way to the Red Forest: Reactor 4